HOW PAGAN ARE YOU?

[Lukis]

I knew this would grab your attention! :) "Id like to make it very clear to everyone i am not actualy going to measure your standards" :p

Open your horizons by opening your mind!

So whats your opinion on non christians having christian mind sets? Do you believe demons for example are all evil? What about lust, greed, wrath all the so called sins, envy,glutony, pride...what about protecting your patch of land?

Sin to me is anything that convicts me, stealing candy from a baby, oh thats bad, but i wouldnt hesitate to strike a burglar and if he endedup in hospital...good job, but if he died, well bring on a jury damb it.

[medievil_witch]

just because someone else says it is evil or bad doesn't mean it is i believe in harm none but i will protect my family and friends i don't believe in harming animals(people also) and plants for no reason and i don't believe in stealing and from a child i agree is discusting i don't belive in making others do something against there will and will not do something i disagree in i take people as they are from all walks of life ,who are we to judge another, nobody has the right i know i don't even if i don't like someone i am still friendly or i would end up a bitter person, blessed be to all )O(

[Elphame]

I don't believe any human emotion, action or reaction, for that matter, is a sin. The problems arise, to me anyway, when emotions are let run rampant in an uncontrolled unmeasured way. I think, if you're smart enough, you will come up with a considered, measured and suitable response to most emotions and situations ie: one that doesn't cause big trouble for everyone, especially oneself. If you have a moment of madness and overindulge in any of the so-called sins, most people find they are hurting themselves. A bit of lust and passion can lead to ecstasy, too much can lead to perversion, which hurts someone. Envy can spur you to greater heights or can eat away at you.
I was brought up CofE and never agreed with the concept of sin, in fact, I burr up at the mention of the word so obviously the christian mindset has had an affect, mostly in the negative. I'm trying to have an open mind but I can't help myself I hate most of their BS.
As for demons, I just won't go there until I know more about it.
Obviously I need to read, learn and experience much more, as this is such a huge subject. These were just some early morning musings when I read your discussion. Would love to talk about it more , though.
Why does everyone think of death as the ultimate punishment? Watching them suffer has got to be better.
Elphame

[Lukis]

Very clever Elphame, great post thanx for sharing. So u would like to talk more? Have you got ques or suggestions?

Dark Blessings
Lukis

[Aradia]

I have a somewhat "Richard Dawkins" issue with all organised religion, although I don't deny the existence of a Creator, even if I do define Her (Him/It) as creation in and of itself. You could say I'm pro-spirituality and anti-religion. Christianity is just another example of a bunch of individuals who chose to create something that elevated their own status and placed themselves firmly between Human and God. What better way to integrate yourself or even place yourself above mortal kings??

Christianity, in my opinion, is a paradox. The doctrine is unwavering, however countless Christian groups have been created in order to allow believers to interpret the 'Word" in their own unique way. It is almost as though they are trying to find spirituality in their own way but still maintain it to be a belief in Christ. We Pagans do it too. They're called eclectics. I like to think however that we are a little more accepting of this (though many these days would say eclectics can't be "Wiccan" for example).

Sin? Again this is a tool for power-over authority. I feel we can only ever honour our own moral code. Clearly adhering to someone else's code has failed. Sure, there are many who have been able to stay true to most of the commandments, yet even the most ardent believers have been guilty of pride, or theft, or do not keep the Sabbath. They are outdated morals and do not take into account the moral dilemmas of society today. I believe that religion should encourage people to seek a deep connection with their own morality, instead of relying on someone else to distinguish right from wrong for them - or banish responsibility through the act of confession which in theory is supposed to be an act of contrition. In reality however, such a confession is likely to be motivated through fear of Judgement Day and/or losing the right to eternal life.

I believe Demons (along with many Godforms) are egregores created by humans. The energy already exists, we cannot create that. In fact, nothing can create anything - energy is merely transformed. However I feel that the collective consciousness of humanity can mould certain energies into Demons. I believe even Christ has become a very powerful egregore - Christ Consciousness. Demons are the same. Satan being the most powerful. I would liken it to the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy. Or be careful what you wish for? Or in this case, believe in.

Eeek! It's late. I better go to bed... work and kids won't wait for me :)

[Lukis]

I like that, theres no creation, just transformation, so...when we die we just change? Interesting, so if i say for example i believe Lucifer relates to fire and not air im not wrong cos my entities are what i turn them into? -Transformation, but is this not creation? What do you think?

[Craig Phoenixwolf]

As a pagan I have been asked this question more than once. Christianity villanized many of the older pagan beliefs. I am a Witch and yet when you look at the bible did not Christ perform magic. Didn't Moses use magic to rescue the jews using his staff as a wand to call on the Divinity to aid him and to part the red sea, or was it like in the Simpsons and they just flushed the toilets all at once.

I believe that the ten commandments do present a more complicated version of "And if it harms none"?

Actually they are simple to follow compared to trying the full Rede in this modern face paced society.

When the Churches chose to Demonize the Horned Gods of the pagans, when they took simple pleasures and made them wrong. I don't see how thoughts of lust are wrong. Like magic a thought can not be right or wrong. It is the deed that is good or bad. But then who decides what? The government sets laws. The Churches set Laws. Covens set Laws. Are any more right that the other?

How many serial killers have thought they were doing the right thing? How many soldiers have died for God. The Crusades were the Christians trying to impose their will. Knights certainly acted in an non Christian manner. But then we today have many pagans serving in the armies of the world. Do they foresake the rule of the Rede by fighting to protect our way of life?

I remember news stories. One in England a few years back. A burglar robbed a home and then jumped out a window and fell into an open hole for a pool they were installing. He sued the owners and claimed loss of income. He stood in court and admitted he was a burglar but because he was the plaintiff they could not charge him with the break in. He actually won the case and damages.

Then there was the pub owner in Sydney that beat up a young man who tried robbing the pub and was charged with it. He was charged with a crime because he was defending what he had worked hard to build. Are mans Laws that messed up. The criminals are protected and the victims punished. Many victims would say yes.

[Lukis]

Yeah thats harsh eh mate, about the victims being punished, i for one would defend my patch of land or even the ground i stand on but it doesnt take much to cross the line these days! I think it was the Gold Coast late last year a bouncer hit someone causing trouble and the one punch killed him. Its obvious size does matter in that case but hes trained to handle the situation better than that so he screwed up and made the mistake. So it still comes down to whether the bouncer thought he was in the wrong to make it sin or not (i really dont like that word :) Maybe he didnt feel bad about what hed done? But i would say if he didnt he does now, behind bars i mean.

Having rules set out by yourself is good, i have my own magical laws, or following commandments is good ethics i guess if their simply benificial for everyone, maybe? what do you think? Do you adhear to rules yourelf?

[Leesha]

I think it's inevitable that many people being non-christian have christian mind-sets. Especially if you were brought up in a Christian household, as I was. I do tend to agree with Nettie in that, the one thing I have seen amongst many Satanists (and I was one myself at one stage), is that they go on and on about Christianity - and yet they are still bound to it. I see very little use of anti-christian imagery, in fact I despise it. Our myspace profile, (the one we sell occult books on) - is usually swamped with anti-christian imagery - ones that have nuns shoving the crucifix down their throat (or elsewhere!!! use your imagination.). I've had images of nuns having sex with devils with limbs cut off. It's disgusting. I've had to start moderating comments because of it. And the only thing that truly shines through to me about these people are that they think they are hard-core Satanists - and yet what they are, are ex-Christians with a huge problem getting rid of the dogma in their head and hearts. They think if they hate it, they will be free. What they don't see is that they are still bound to it.

You cannot be truly free of something, if you continually rage against it. That still makes you a prisoner. I can understand where a lot of Satanists come from who feel they despise Christianity, and in many ways, I think it can be a cathartic process for them. But you can't stay in "hate mode" forever, as you're not growing. I love my Christian friends - we agree to disagree, but as people they are great. You don't have to respect the Church's history. Hate it if you want (I personally feel that Hate is a wasted emotion and only screws you up); but don't hate the people if they treat you with respect.

As for sins - well, I govern myself. If my actions are going to hurt someone, then obviously I don't do it. Hurting others to get ahead is useless. Hurting someone, resenting someone - It's like taking a poison pill and waiting for the other person to die. If you govern yourself and are in touch with yourself spiritually - knowing the body, mind, heart and spirit, how can you possibly go wrong, as long as you are impeccable in your approach? Being led by Spirit, whether you are Christian Luciferian, Occultist, Witch, etc - will not lead you astray. However, we also have the ego to contend with, and you will find in most Occult circles, the Ego is a driving force that can be a terrible master but a wonderful servant.

I think Pride is something that has been terribly misconstrued. In many ways the Catholic Church for one (and in my own experience), does not teach you to have pride in yourself for they see it as a sin, as you know. Nearly every Catholic I know has low self-esteem, and doesn't feel worthy in their God's eyes. That is one of the reasons I became a Satanist at one stage - what is wrong with feeling good about yourself? Taking pride in your appearance or your good work? But noooo, you must have humility.

As for Demons - I have researched and practiced both Demonology and Demonaltry. I see Demons and Angels as an aspect of myself. I do believe in the Hermetic Axiom: As above, so below. Taking that into account means that everything is me and I am everything. Therefore, there can be no separation, and yet there is. A conundrum indeed. I once received training from a Gnostic Priest who told me of his experience with summoning a Demon. When he looked into the mirror, he saw this grotesque figure staring back at him, and his heart was beating like a drum. He had believed he had conjured something purely evil and horrible. He looked closer, and saw that it was him. Demons, in my opinion, have been viewed incorrectly, thanks to the Christian concepts of good and evil.

Saying the Our Father backwards, as Frances posted can be a good cathartic, and freeing process for anyone who feels bound to Christianity. Like she said, it's not anti-Christian, even though many see it that way. In the eyes of a Christian, of course it is anti-Christian, but in the eyes of a non-Christian, it's simply a liberating ritual. And you have a right to be free of any dogma that weighs you down and stunts growth.

Anyway, enough from me...I've raved on enough. Great group! Thanks for starting it, Lukis.

[Rachel]

Good question indeed! Would it be fair to say, based on the idea of reincarnation and the eventual ascendance of one's soul to true enlightenment, that maybe as our souls mature and develop, our values and morals might ascend with them?
I'm with you you on the burglar thing and the basic right to defend us and ours and that sometimes as mortals we are forced into situations that require a physical reaction, not always with a positive outcome. But the burglar too is at fault and maybe an unlucky death in this life is just good old fashioned kharma being paid from the wrongs of a past life? Everything happens for a reason yeah? Could it be pssible that if you were guilty of a human murder that the way you deal with that and the way you feel about that could be a part of the lessons you are learning in this life.
Lust is not necessarily a bad thing, many a great romance begins with lust and I guess on the other side, it can be the ruin of some. Depends on how u use your lust and whether it is an enchanted thing or a burden. Greed is good. it doesn't mean that you are selfish always, more that you are passionate enough to want something. Whats the point of being mortal if you want for nothing and feel nothing? Envy can make you appreciate things more, if u use it to your advantage it could teach you to work harder and try a little more to get what you want. I guess I can see a useful side to all the deadly sins, dunno if Id necessarily call them sins, more like the human condition ha ha.
I understand that we all have different ideas and beliefs about life, reincarnation, death and our souls, but I guess that's my take on it.